Why We Read: Books, Conversation, and Community

What happens when a school community reads together? In this episode of Hoplite Radio, Headmaster Derek Anderson sits down with Outdoor Education Leader Kristen Carvalho to discuss the books explored through Ridgeview’s parent reading groups. From Middlemarch and Henry James to A Separate Peace and The Enormous Radio, they explore what great literature can teach us about human nature, friendship, duty, technology, education, and the choices that shape our lives.

Anderson and Carvalho discuss the value of encountering a book for yourself, wrestling with difficult ideas, hearing perspectives different from your own, and building a community where people can have substantive conversations. As Anderson puts it, the goal is not simply to create better readers, but to cultivate people who are capable of meaningful and civil conversation with one another.

Read The Transcript:

00:00

00:00:00

[INTRO MUSIC]

00:00:15 Mr. Anderson

Hello and welcome to Hoplite Radio, an educational podcast by Ridgeview Classical Schools which explores the importance of classical education in a modern era.

Today we're trying something a little bit new, which is to cover some of the books that we've talked about in parent reading groups.

I'm joined today by Mrs. Kristen Carvalho, our outdoor education leader. And she's going to walk us through some of the things that we've read and her impressions of those and hopes that we might entice other people to pick up these books or join us for our book groups.

Mrs. Carvalho, can you tell us a little bit about how you came to Ridgeview and why you began participating in the parent reading groups?

00:00:52 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah, I came to Ridgeview in I think it was 2003 when I moved to Fort Collins and was looking for a school. I came in, you know, shadowed much as everybody else did and I was impressed by the things people were learning, the things that they were talking about, the fact that they had actual conversations.

And I originally started going to parent book groups when my children started coming to school here and I wanted to meet other parents. I don't necessarily excel at small talk and so I think it was a way for me to stop someone in the hallway and say, hey, you know, what did you read in parent book group?

What ideas did you have about that without just saying, you know, the same conversation every day of how are the kids, how's the weather, you know, all those things?

00:01:39 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, and I do think something you and I have talked about, which is that Ridgeview does aspire, I think, to foster sort of authentic community of people who are readers who are interested in reading. We get as many recommendations back from other people as we do, I think hopefully probably that we're giving to people.

And I would say with regards to you specifically, but also to other Ridgeview graduates, whether that was in faculty seminars with the parent reading group says, it is interesting that, you know, 15, 20 years on from graduation that Ridgeview students still talk about books in a very particular way. They are good readers in the sense of their ability to track information, to highlight important passages, to return to the text and discussions.

So that is a part of why I asked Kristen to be on the podcast with us today. And really to talk about the thing that I think most people who are at Ridgeview love, which is books.

And I think why do they love books? That's actually kind of a critical point. I think that people who read a lot are in many respects sort of more interesting conversationalists. It's almost allowed them to lead multiple lives and find new and maybe more articulated or precise ways to share their experiences with one another. Which I think hopefully makes us all better because we can only, you know, have our individual experiences. But if we can come to understand other people's takes on those things, it often broadens and deepens.

So for background, we run essentially four parent reading groups. We run a weekly, a monthly, a fathers and a summer reading group.

And just to cover fairly quickly without giving it enough credit, really, George Elliott's, Middle March, which was the summer book. And you participated in that discussion. How did the discussion go? And was it the first time you had read middle march?

00:03:37 Mrs. Carvalho

It was the first time that I had fully read middle March. I had tried to read it earlier on, I think. And it's a long book, of course. And it is a dense book. I think it says a lot of things. And I thought one of the questions that you had asked early on is sort of why is this an important book, but why is it a book that people come to later? And I thought the book itself answered that question well and that it's a complex book. She sort of refuses to wrap it up and put a neat bow on it. I think the characters are really well developed. You see them as real people, but certainly flawed people. The discussion was lively. I think we had different, definitely differing opinions, and I brought up the question at one point in time. Is middle March a dangerous book? And sort of without giving too much away, the main character, Dorthea, when she goes through life. I'm not really certain what it is that guides her outside of her own intuition and her own goodness. And so I think a lot of the discussions in her around, you know, can a person be naturally good and make all the right decisions?

Do they need some sort of external force that guides them? And we see other characters in the book who clearly have some sort of external ethic or external code, like Bulstrode is very religious, but maybe not exactly the best example of a religious person.

And then, you know, you have other characters who come in who are guided by science and other people who seem to have really no ethical system at all. I really think Elliott is asking good questions about what guides you as a person and what helps you to have an impact on the world. But she refuses to sort of, you know, in a pride and prejudice way say everybody gets a happy ending and everything turns out well.

00:05:29 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, and it's interesting. She definitely did. Elliott definitely was sort of bundled together with people like Austin and the Bronte sisters and things. And I think that she is in my view fairly dramatically different, even right out of the gate from those authors in that I think that Austin in particular is probably the better writer, but Elliott is almost certainly the better thinker… is that a view you would endorse?

00:05:58 Mrs. Carvalho

And I think that Elliott is really very happy with that. Certainly, there's some really beautiful passages and I think that Elliott wins on last line with her, you know, infinite ways that Dorothy has impacted the world. So, I think there's definitely some really high quality writing in there, but as far as memorable passages, I would pull more from Austin.

00:06:19 Mr. Anderson

And I think the other thing that that was notable in that discussion is maybe from the first meeting that parents met and they were talking about Elliott is everybody brought up this quote from Virginia Wolf about it being one of the only “novels in English for grownups.” And I think it begs the question of what really makes it an adult novel. And I think that it's, you know, there's things that you brought up it sort of moral seriousness. I do think particularly with regards to Dorothy, it's very psychologically astute, right? Like it acknowledges things which are not always flattering about human beings and why they do the things they do and how they reconcile that.

But I think it's also the dynamic behind social relations, which I think still pervades obviously in a contemporary moment, but it's oftentimes when you're reading Austin or Bronte or Elliott is I think that people look at it as though the social interactions were not really good. And the social interactions were much more convoluted then and they've become much more authentic now. I don't I think Elliott would push back on the notion that they're more authentic now that just maybe they're less scrutinized than they ought to be.

00:07:29 Mrs. Carvalho

Yes, we're less careful when we should be more careful.

00:07:32 Mr. Anderson

And I think it's the other thing that makes it a, you know, a profound novel to contemplate with a group of people is that Elliott is very deliberate and it's clear from the time that she took to write that novel that this was intentional is it does not attempt sort of neatly categorize people in order to advance a romantic plot in the way that somebody like Austin would do.

She I think is very aware of how complicated people are and sometimes how contrary they can be and if you've got you know 900 pages in order in which to explore that you can do a fairly good job if you're very, very, very bright and I think Elliott was for sure.

00:08:21 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah, you definitely get the impression in reading it that she studied people that she had, you know, she was very astute in her observations of people and very careful in the way she built her characters.

I think part of the reason sometimes the book isn't as well liked is because the people are so real. I think some of us want, you know, the Mr. Darcys and the Mr. Bingleys and instead in her book we get real people which have their faults.

00:08:47 Mr. Anderson

Correct, yeah, I think if you were coming to it for escapist fiction, I don't think it works. I think if you're coming to it with the intent of higher art maybe is it a higher art? I think maybe in some sense it is because it is really forcing a contemplation about how human beings work and how they interact with one another in a way that is much more precise with regards to real life than a romance.

00:09:16 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah, I think that's true.

00:09:20 Mr. Anderson

All right, so from George Elliott onto the weeklies so we have so far this year done for weekly readings. We've done Henry James the beast in the jungle, Edora wealthy a worn path, the D H. Lawrence is the thorn in the flash and John Cheevers the enormous radio. So, you have been absent for some of those discussions so far this year simply because we're getting things underway with the outdoor program you've been on some trips. So, which of these stories have you read?

00:09:49 Mrs. Carvalho

I read Henry James the beast in the jungle and then the enormous radio.

00:09:54 Mr. Anderson

So, what do you think of the James piece? Obviously, you're a huge fan of Henry James.

00:09:55 Mrs. Carvalho

I actually think that I struggle with Henry James for what's probably not a flattering reason for myself, which is that he takes a lot of patience. I think he requires patience of his reader because he uses long sentences and a lot of words to build a sort of tension in his stories. I think it's the same thing in Turn of the Screw where he gives you this almost like sense of frustration where you're thinking Henry James get to the point, but the point is really like the cracks of the story, right? And he leads you there very slowly, I think intentionally so. And so I've begun to appreciate him more, but I do think he's a difficult author to read for that reason.

00:10:45 Mr. Anderson

Years ago when we did turn of the screw in the parent reading group, it was funny because someone said, I think it was me actually I said that I felt like it was unnecessary for both and that James didn't have a style so much as a tactic.

And my point in describing it as a tactic was that you felt like you could read the first paragraph in the last paragraph of each chapter and walk away with a complete understanding of the story.

But you are right about I mean the tactic is James is verbose in order to build attention. I think that's actually a very good way to put that.

Which is something he does in The Beast in the Jungle for sure. I think that one of most devastating lines in there was. And I can't remember now whether it was the protagonist that says it or whether it was the woman who says it about the protagonist, but the line is it wouldn't have been failure to be bankrupt, dishonored, pilloried or hanged it was failure not to be anything. That is…

00:11:47 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah.

00:11:50 Mr. Anderson

I think there's like a shadow in all of us that, you know, that recognizes why that's devastating is like a fear for what we have spent out our life on.

00:11:59 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah, there's I think he is kind of a genius in the way that he paints the tragicness of this figure that he was terrified of this one bad thing that was going to happen in his life and sort of in that terror of the one bad thing he makes all of these choices to try to avoid it.

And you know he meets this girl and in that he is caught up in like her ability to understand him and the thing that he focuses most on I think throughout the course of the story is his own need to have this fear of what is going to happen to him understood.

And then of course at the end we get this tragedy where he realizes that he didn't do anything for this girl that did everything for him.

And in that he's failed to live and so I think James's ability to paint like I think a couple of things of our deep desire as humans to be known and to be understood one of the my favorite lines in this was basically where she just looks at him and she says he says I'm afraid of this thing and she says I know and I believe you.

And that is like you know the peak of I think what most people want is just to be heard and to be known and to be believed but then he doesn't even realize until the end right that the tragedy is that he forgot to do that for other people.

00:13:18 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, I mean it's well and it's his profound egotism, right, I mean it's wrapped up in what he believes that his fate might be but it's also this overwhelming egotism that prevents him from ever even noticing the one person who is taking the time to notice him.

00:13:36 Mrs. Carvalho

Right? And that it seems possible that she had this whole other life right where she was well loved and she loved others well and he doesn't have that one she's gone right? So, yeah I thought it was beautifully done and it did sort of help me to see what I think James is doing with his writing but I would agree with you that it does sometimes feel like a tactic you're being taken along unwillingly.

00:14:04 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, I would encourage listeners if you if you have the time or you've been sort of intimidated by James the reason the jungle is not a bad place to start because it's shorter than turn of the screw and it gives you a sense of what James can do if you sort of surrender to the tactic as it were.

I'll sort of fast forward through the next two you Eudora Welty’s A Worn Path is an interesting story and I think the discussion on it was equally interesting. It was published in 1941 and the critical thing about wealthy is that she's from Jackson, Mississippi, and the story itself follows, I think, fairly sympathetically a black woman but Welty's treatment of race I think became a major point of the discussion among the parents and it's a lot more nuanced I think than what people are accustomed to today.

You see the main character encounter a different kind of maybe racism than what we would even describe as racism I mean it's, it's kindness, it's indulgence, it's cruelty, it's all sorts of things in a way that still allows the story to be about something other than race, and I think Welty was asked about the story later on in life and she said you know the point isn't the other people the point is the perseverance of love in action not word.

I mean I think her point was you see a lot of stories, a lot of writing about people telling one another how much they love one another we don't see as many stories where that is entirely carried out in the actions of a character. So, if any then is looking for a short story, I think it was a it was the kind of story that felt so short that people I think showed up to the discussion uncertain of what there would be to talk about, and then everyone sort of left going, “Wow that was actually a very good discussion and that story means a lot more to me than it would have to have I had I just read it on my own.”

It was not however the type of writing that stands out because there's great lines, it's a great story, it's not great lines. D.H. Lawrence and the story by Lawrence did have some big profound heady kind of standout lines and it was a very different kind of story. Obviously, Lawrence was really inspired by the comment by Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:7 which is where the Thorn metaphor comes from, but Lawrence turns that passage with his main character and has him say or reflect, “…if I made like that I shall have to abide by it, that's all, it isn't all of me”. He thought of Emily who's another character in the story is love interest and was satisfied what I am I am and let it be enough he thought which when I read it initially sounded exactly like Popeye, but Lawrence’s is point with somewhat deeper than Popeye and he was exploring this whole idea about what he recall regarded as blood consciousness which is the victories in life to be had our internal primal and individual. They're not about externalities like politics for instance or social conventions or in this case really sort of military order the victory is entirely internal for both the protagonist and for the other character Emily and I would say that that whole notion of blood consciousness I think it is interesting that Lawrence writes that story I think in night I think that story becomes published in 1914 what's interesting about that is it was polarizing then and it was clear from that discussion in the parent group that story still has the capacity to be polarizing so at least on that front Lawrence is successful

Which brings us forward to Cheever, so Cheever was comically described as the Chekhov of the suburbs which I love that for Cheever, as a description I think that fits very well, but we the story was the Enormous Radio I thought that was a good discussion amongst parents it did seem to be a bit of a spillover from another discussion you had the night before in a different book group about Paul Kingsnorth, Against the Machine, but what did you think of Cheever.

00:18:46 Mrs. Carvalho

 Yeah, I think that it's funny that you say that it seemed to be sort of a spill over because I felt like I was having a hard time separating it from other things we had recently read particularly that book and so that's kind of an interesting thing that happens the more things you discuss right the more they start to talk to each other and sometimes you wonder is this what the author wanted me to see here right or am I bringing this to the text and so I do think though here that Cheever is trying to get us to ask about the role of technology in our lives, but I think also there's more to it right then just the technology aspect I think they there were a couple of things that struck me as interesting they bring this enormous radio which by the way is a great title for a story into their house, and I thought the reason that it got there was interesting because they didn't understand the technology enough to fix what they already had in their home so they went out and they bought something new right that they also didn't understand. So I think there is sort of this commentary on like our do we understand what we're bringing into our home do we know how it's getting there or maybe what the intentions are so that was an interesting question that I thought was brought up another one is there my favorite quote from the story was “the powerful and ugly instrument with its mistaken sensitivity to discord was more than she could hope to master so she turned the thing off and went to the nursery with her children”,  so there's this radio right and she can the idea of the radio is that she can hear what her neighbors are saying right but she doesn't hear very many good things I think when we talked about it she hears only one positive interaction between the Indian or children so the radio definitely does have this attraction to discord right of focuses on the radio and the radio is not going to be in the way that she is going to be in the way that she is going to do it.

This is the first time I've ever seen a radio show in a good way and I've never seen a radio show in a good way and I think it's just like a very strange thing about the radio show.

I think that's the most important thing that I've ever seen is the radio show in a good way and I think that's what I think is the most important thing that I've ever seen is the radio show in a good way.

What does she do? She turns it off and she goes to her actual job where she does have an impact right which is in raising her children and in being with them and in being present and so for those reasons, I thought the story for as short as it is made some really really good points.

00:21:04 Mr. Anderson

Yeah and I think one of the things that she does so masterfully and it leans into why he would be referred to or compared to check off is his scene setting is so almost innocuous seeming, it's you know, it does not feel dramatic and then the way he snaps the trap shut at the end of that story and everything kind of you know in a clap right it all kind of makes sense.

And I think some of the things that makes sense is you definitely get this notion that at the beginning of the story there's going to be this really I was said dissection I think in the book discussion although I almost say it's like vivisection of middle class middle class respectability and the veneer that goes on these things between public and private selves and all of this and this weird voyeurism that takes place through this radio.

And how much of a facade that is I think is you get the sense that he is going to poke holes in that at the beginning of the story, but you have no idea until the very end how dramatic somebody can dial that up.

00:22:15 Mrs. Carvalho

There's that one line that's just so pathetic where she looks at her husband and she says “we're happy, our lives aren't sorted, right?” and I'm just, you can't read that, and it's like oh no that's horrible right you almost cringe when you read it.

00:22:28 Mr. Anderson

It is yeah, I mean there was so many contemporaneous kind of conversations that I think poke through in that discussion about you know the intrusion of technology into our lives which you sort of touched on when you spoke to moment ago.

Again, public and private selves I think modern surveillance.

You know when she becomes fearful that they can be heard right and not just other people and even social media the sort of comparison culture that takes place with social media, like why what is it that's motivating people to post things about their lives or pictures of their children etc. You know it started as a way to keep in touch with friends, now it's unclear who it is that we're broadcasting these things to.

00:23:22 Mrs. Carvahlo

Right absolutely.

00:23:24 Mr. Anderson

Do you have anything else on Cheever? Would you recommend Cheever to a friend?

00:23:29 Mrs. Carvalho

This is actually the first thing I ever read by Cheever, and I enjoyed it,so I probably will read a few more things.

00:23:38 Mr. Anderson

So, this carries us on to the monthly book group which this month was John Knowle's, A Separate Peace.

I think somewhere around January February of last year I was looking through curricula for various schools and I was looking at a school in Texas and they were sort of bragging about what their curriculum was, and they had posted a picture with all the covers for all the various things that they were reading in their curriculum, and I was looking through it thinking you know what do I make of this.

A lot of the things that were on that list are things that are currently in the Ridgeview curriculum there are handful of things that used to be in the Ridgeview curriculum that we've since decided not have in there anymore and there's things that we just outright discarded.

But there was only one book in that whole list that I had never even heard of which was John Knowles, A Separate Peace.

And somewhat embarrassingly the more people I told that to the more people that looked at me puzzled and surprised that I had never heard of John Noll's or a separate piece.

So apparently, I was the odd man out and interestingly when I chose it for the monthly groups for this year, had a lot of parents come back to me including parents who had attended PSD schools 15, 20, 25 years ago and they all said we read that in school. So, clearly it has been a part of high school curriculum for a lot of years but I had never heard of it and I'd certainly never read it and I'm glad that I did.

I thought that it was I think it has a worthy place on high school curriculum. There's certainly a lot worse things that kids could be reading in high school. Had you read it before?

00:25:13 Mrs. Carvalho

I did not read it, and I actually had not even heard of it. So, I was you know excited to read it, but I will say it's sort of one of those books that once I started talking to people and once, I had read it I thought how did I miss this for such a long time?

00:25:28 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, so without giving too much away about the book because I do think that this is one that I would, I would encourage people to read this. I think it's a caveat about this towards the end of this part of the discussion, but I think Knowles writes well, I think it's a compelling story, I think he says important things. I think it fills a lot of categories for what can you know what makes a book great, but what stands out to you why should people read John Knowles, A Separate Peace?

00:26:01 Mrs. Carvalho

I think a couple of things stood out; I think again it is similar to some of the stories we talked about previously which is just his ability to represent human relationships and human connection. I think in this one it's a great example of I think a friendship between young men and just that it's represented for its imperfections and also for how meaningful it is and how necessary it is.

Also it's perfect for us to read because of what it says about education I think the idea of how do you bring a boy up to become a man I think is a question worth asking and I think the book has a lot to say about sort of right and wrong ways that that can be done and the pressures that the external world puts on, them the pressures that the school puts on them, and what of those are justified and effective, and what of those are maybe a bit too much.

I think the other question that I wish we had talked about more in the group was there's never enough time, you know he said don't for an hour, and always feels like the time goes quickly. Was the question of duty like what do we owe the world when the world has given you know culture or a school or a friendship right what do you owe in return as a person.

00:27:25 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, you mentioned that after the book group and I thought that's true I wish I wish that had been more fully explored because duty is a word that no use is multiple times not and he uses it in reference to his friend he uses it in reference to his school it is a night I mean the setting for that is really 1941 42 principally, so we're talking about duty to country.

There's a lot of you know potentially conflicting duties that are occurring there. Duty to self, I think is another version of that duty, so I think there's a lot going on there I think one of the as I said during the group I think one of the most important passages for me as I somewhat jokingly said when I walked into the room the most important line in this entire novel occurs on page 59.

And that line for me was quote, “he had never been jealous of me for a second now I knew there never was and never could have been any rival between us I was not of the same quality as he.” and I think that is that is really like what is being explored about the quality of individuals the type of person that we are at our core.

And maybe even the nature of what constitutes charisma is a huge deal in Knowles, and I think to explore that over the course of how long that novel is just over I think 200 pages so pretty condensed space to be able to fully explore that I think no is does a great job of it.

00:28:58 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah, and I really like the way he represents the friendship is between these two boys who it really seems for all intents and purposes are not equals. Right? You have Phineas who is just sort of this larger than life character.

And Gene sort of there's a question like does he resent Phineas for that is you know does he even know to resent, that he resent like would he identify it himself as resentment?

And I think the other thing that was really interesting is that Gene underestimates I think his ability to have an impact on the world he sees Phineas is sort of this larger than life character that he can't really impact or sway or change and you know, no spoilers, but he he does he can have a significant impact on the world.

And so I think the book is also saying that and that these choices matter right a single person for a single instance can have something that makes a comparatively large effect on somebody.

00:30:02 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, one other thing I would say about the book which is you know the other sort of controversial point potentially that I made in the discussion which is and I think this is important particularly because this book is read in school so often.

And it's really a criticism of the publisher more than it is of Knowles. In fact, it's sort of maybe flattery of no else and a critique of the publisher, which is I think that both the preface and the post script to the copy of the book that we read. Which is I think Scribner, isn’t it?

They're bad in important ways. I think that they're bad because they don't allow Knowles’ this story to stand on its own with his readers they attempt to color and filter that in a politically ideological way before a person has ever had exposure to a great story.

Is that a fair point because that was a little bit of a part of our discussion like the story itself is great the way that it's being used in some instances is maybe less charming.

00:31:13 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah, I think that's true I think especially if you bring something to the book that you wouldn't get if you just sat down to read it and I think what was interesting is I'm always leary when it comes to a professor in introduction or a post script or whatever it might be.

I usually read them after I read the book, because I want to experience the book the way the author intended. I usually and sometimes I think wow that's a thoughtful bit of history that I wouldn't have brought right or that was really insightful I didn't know that the author had are also written other texts that kind of speak to this issue.

I don't think was the case in this one in that I got something that I wouldn't have even picked up on from the from the introduction and so I think in that way it's sort of trying to shoehorn a book into talking about a particular ideology and I think that is something that might be one of my least favorite things that people use books to do.

00:32:15 Mr. Anderson

And think that’s a frequent conversation in the parent reading groups is about do you read the professor do you not and that's an interesting thing because I have sort of religiously always read the book in the order in which the information is presented in a very sort of a CD fashion but I am slowly coming around I think to the notion that that's probably not maybe the best idea and I question whether it's because those have changed in terms of their content or if it's simply I guess maybe an exposure to the parent reading group over the last 10 years that has brought me around to it because I feel like is that preferences particularly for you know to pick a publisher who I think has generally done a good job with preferences although is starting to do a worst job would be the Everyman editions. And the Everyman editions used to be really great, because they would lay out sort of context and timeline and where this work occurred in the author’s broader sort of bibliography and things like that and I and I appreciated that because it then started the story with like at least context. What is less charming and appealing, as I said is, when it starts to look like it's coloring it for you where it's pre telling you what it meant or what it has meant others and I think that maybe that's not as much a problem when adults are coming to a book but I think it's very problematic when a student you know who is somewhere between 14 and 18 years old is coming to a story because it never gives them the chance to decide what it means to them and is one of the conversations that I think we have a lot in class is, you can read a book, as we I think all know now as readers, at 14 and then read it again at in your 30s and it is almost not at all the same book.

I mean I had people come back after reading the A Separate Peace and say “it's exactly as I remembered it” and I had other people who would also read it in high school come back and say “I had completely forgotten about this whole element” in fact Mrs. Hayhurst when I was talking with her about it said, “I can't believe that I totally overlooked the fact about the death in that story she said I was so fixated on the friendship element that I did not forgot about that part” and you know it's interesting how much books change for us and I think we have to be I think it's a mistake on the part of publishers, and I'm not sure what the financial motivation is to do that. Because it seems like it would be cheaper from their perspective just simply to let Knowles speak right his point and then let it be and then let people enjoy it.

00:35:07 Mrs. Carvahlo

I wonder if it's a sense of obligation they feel like they need to have some sort of new explanation to publish another copy but I do I think not reading the preface might be sort of like a uniquely, not unique, but it's a Ridgeview type of approach to a book right I think the first time I was handed the Aeneid here I thought, “well what do I do with this?” right? but the teacher told me you're smart enough to read this book, like you can come to this and have an encounter with the book on your own and you won't get everything and you maybe won't understand all the historical context and there will be references that you miss right and I think that's an important thing to tell children is you can pick up a book and you can have an interaction with it and you don't need someone to explain every bit and piece of it. Right? You can, of course if you know Mr. Herndon can give you a little bit of a preview of the history and that that's going to be helpful you're going to make more connections and you would have otherwise if you read additional books you're going to make additional connections, but you could just sit down and pick up you know Little Women or A Separate Peace, you don't need someone to sort of do the intro for you.

00:36:15 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, I actually touched on something that I was going to bring up closer to the end, but that's that I don't know that there's anything that we have read in the last ten years and we've read now hundreds of things for these parent reading groups where I didn't like the story more almost every story more as a result of the discussion that we had about it. Then I would have had I just sat at home and read it and just tick the box and put it back on a shelf.

00:36:44 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah it is really me I think how other people can increase your appreciation of a story even if you already liked it right you can leave with new aspects or elements but that part of conversation I think the more I read the more I think there are some text that I think this requires discussion but there's almost nothing that I wouldn't be like I wonder what you know a certain person thinks of this book I'm going to go ask them about it.

00:37:10 Mr. Anderson

Or people who come out very strongly against a particular author. Which I think has happened now with both Hemingway and Steinbeck and I think I probably read pretty much everything in the Hemingway at this point, but I have read precious little frankly of Steinbeck. I think I'm about ready to go on a deep dive of Steinbeck and really because not because people have endorsed him in that group but because people have been so critical of Steinbeck in there that it makes me more curious as to whether that's justifiable or not.

I don't think doing a deep dive because I want to become Steinbeck's ultimate defender, but I am curious like why are people so impassioned about a particular author in either direction positive or negative.

00:37:59 Mrs. Carvalho

Right yeah, I find it surprising that there's so much anti-Steinbeck in the parent book group ,but it's not how I feel so, I'm also curious to understand where they're coming from.

00:38:09 Mr. Anderson

I guess maybe what it is with Steinbeck is I don't feel like I am well-read enough in Steinbeck to be his… to have an opinion that's measurable to theirs right like.

00:38:19 Mrs. Carvalho

Right, I feel like everybody gets introduced to their token high school book in Steinbeck and they form a lot of their opinions based on that right your first encounter I think can keep you away from something for a long time.

00:38:31 Mr. Anderson

Yeah well so I did say I was going to circle back at the end here about my maybe I don't know if it's a criticism really of Knowles, but a caveat about its inclusion in a high school curriculum and when I think about some of the other things that they are reading in high school like; Paradise Lost or Mobi Dick or Crime and Punishment and then I compare it to A Separate Peace I do have questions is the whether or not like, Are there books that we come to on our own and we can take every not everything but close to everything there is to be taken from them and I might I think I might put a separate piece into that I think a reasonably intelligent reasonably astute16 year old who were to read a separate piece on their own is going to take away the big critical things. I think it's way more intimidating for a 16 year old to tackle Paradise Lost on their own and be a lot more

00:40:00 Mrs. Carvalho

I think that's a fair question and I think if you compare it to something like Paradise Lost or Mobi Dick or something like that that you need someone I think in that case to point out what certain valuable elements are I think especially in my first reading of my book. My first reading of Mobi Dick, you have all of those, you know, in between chapters about the whale and cytology and you're thinking, “how is this relevant?” because you're expecting Melville to just move the story along right and that's not what he's doing so you have to sort of be taught what to look for and what to appreciate and I think the same things true of Paradise Lost. We’re so far removed from Milton I think culturally that you need someone to sort of lead you back.

And with A Separate Peace we're not that far removed. I mean none of us are going to boarding school, so that you know we're a little bit removed, but I think the idea of like teenage boys going out and getting into trouble and having a friendships- those are all things that are more identifiable to students. So, I would agree with you that I think they they probably won't get everything and I think especially this is a book that I would think if they came back to it older they would have more perspective but they probably could get a good amount of what they need  from the book just reading it alone.

00:40:57 Mr. Anderson

Yeah, and I hope I mean I don't I'm cautious about saying anything that's critical of Knowles or the book because I do think it's worthwhile, I don't want to dissuade anyone particularly actually a high school student from reading it,  and I don't want to make it sound like the bar is so high that if you didn't write Crime and Punishment nobody should read it. Because I think that could come across is really pretentious which I think is actually one of the things in our current time that we need to be very careful about not presenting to either students or parents is because if you want a community of readers the barrier to entry needs to be as low as possible.

I think people should be invited in no matter how much experience they have reading, if you genuinely think that a community of readers improves not just Ridgeview. Maybe not even just education, but like literally the world like we're doing a tiny part in terms of making force multipliers so the people who are out there in the world. Whether they're waiting for the oil to get changed at jiffy loop or they're having a conversation at seven o'clock in the evening with their neighbors like everybody is more capable of having a meaningful conversation about something of substance is that a good reason to want to create readers or is that wildly pretentious or wildly idealistic?

00:42:35 Mrs. Carvalho

I mean I think it's a great reason to want to cultivate readers, but I think also there's like a simplicity to reading like that it's okay to read things that you just enjoy like yes you should read things that are meaningful.

Yes you should read things that are difficult but also like we all read things just for fun right and it's nice to be able to talk to someone about a book I mean on the seventh grade trip the other day a kid was walking around with a copy of John Grisham's the firm and I said to him hey that is a great story and he was like you read John Grisham.

Well you know in the airport from time to time but it's like almost like this idea that you know you might be embarrassed to read just for fun or sometimes parents will say to me oh I didn't grow up with this education like how would I go to a parent book group and I was like well it's easy it's at a 15 you know you show up and you sit down and we talk about a book and certainly no one in there I think understands the whole book right there have been times I walked into a book group- Hunger comes to mind, and like thrown the book down on the table and said “could someone please explain to me why anyone should read this book?” like I'm a little irritated that I read 96 pages. So, I think being willing to approach I think mostly to just participate in that conversation and to ask questions of other people and to have sort of an honest interaction with a book.

00:43:46 Mr. Anderson

I would chime in and I guess in wrapping this up. Is that I think it's way more casual than people would suspect right I think that people are coming together it is the thing to talk about those conversations have been had over coffee, tea, or you know whiskey at night, and almost every one of the I can't really think of a bad conversation there have been people who disagreed with one another pretty vehemently about. There are various things political things will come up moral things will come up but also even amidst the same individuals who might be sort of is diametrically opposed politically as it's possible to be the next meeting those two people will find this weird camaraderie because they're both parents and they're both trying to like navigate how to be good parents or how to be thoughtful people or how to present information to their child in a way that they'll latch onto that rather than their phones or. You know, they find overlap and commonality in those groups for some reason talking about books and giving them that is the medium and sort of the fodder I think allows people to make deeper connections with one another than they would otherwise make and it provides for a kind of civility that frankly does not exist in other things. So, my hope I guess, is whether it's our book groups or people starting other book groups as a result of spin off or whatever we want to regard that is- having more readers in the world, and having more people who are engaged in civil and purposeful the sort of discussion with one another, who can be casual enough to develop friendships out of those things I think is is an important contribution on our part to the world.

00:45:29 Mrs. Carvalho

Yeah I would agree with that and I think it's a lot of fun.

00:45:33 Mr. Anderson

Thank you Mrs. Carvalho and we will be back next month with another update about things we've read.

Hopefully recommendations that we can make but if you don't want to wait a month feel free to stop in join a book group but every one of these things including the summer one has been set up so that you can drop in as you can make it and there's not a lot of pressure if you can't make very many but if you can make even one and check it out that be great.

For now thank you for listening to Hoplite Radio if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe on Apple Podcasts Spotify iHeartRadio or your preferred listening app.

For more information about Ridgeview Classical Schools please visit our website at Ridgeviewclassical.org.

[ OUTRO MUSIC]